How does this make sense?
Jan. 11th, 2009 07:52 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
sniffnoySo I just won 2 games of Kongai against different people in almost exactly the same way (they weren't consecutive, though).
First game: I start Marquis, he starts Cain. He gets far. I intercept, he Voidstreams. I Blood Burn, he Voidstreams again. He switches out, I intercept. He forfeits.
Second game: I start Marquis, he starts Cain. He gets far. I intercept, he rests. I intercept again, he Voidstreams. I Blood Burn, he Voidstreams again. He switches out, I intercept. He switches out again, I intercept again. Cain dies. He forfeits.
Now first thing here that doesn't make sense is, OK, being down a full character while having dealt no damage is a very bad start, but forfeiting? Really? He hadn't even seen any of my other cards; for all he knew I was characters he had a big advantage against. And forfeiting after getting intercepted just *once*? 35 damage is nowhere near insurmountable.
Second thing is, why do people try this? This far from the first time I've run across this strategy - Cain getting far against Marquis, or the player otherwise displaying he thinks Cain has an advantage over Marquis at far range (being at far range and intercepting, e.g.). (Indeed, I wrote about such a case in my first entry on Kongai - it was how I discovered the Stalemate Sucka rule.) Hell, this isn't even the first time I've had nearly this same exact exchange, though I don't think it's always ended with my opponent conceding.
Let's analyze this. At close range, Cain can Tackle. If Marquis goes Life Drain, it's got a 50% chance of getting interrupted. Sure, a 50% chance of your attack being largely neutralized isn't so good, but it's better than a lot of others can do against Marquis at close range, right? You interrupt me even once and I'm in trouble, and you've got a 50% chance to do so... much better than Higashi's 30%. Now, you can't interrupt a Vampiric Touch, but that costs 55. Though, in this case, it will heal most of the damage from Tackle, and Marquis only needs to do it twice in order to kill (but will he?).
In any case, I'd say it's not really clear who has the advantage in close range Marquis vs Cain, but I'd probably give the edge to Cain. But here's the thing - even if you disagree, why would you go far? Switch to a different character entirely perhaps, but not go far. Let's look at the far range case.
At far range, Cain initially cannot damage Marquis. He just can't. He has to cast Voidstream twice before he can do any damage at all - Rush of Bats for a whole 5 damage. Not very threatening. So yes - if Marquis simply stood there and rested the whole time, Cain would eventually kill the Marquis. But the Marquis is not going to stand there and rest the whole time. What can the Marquis do? He can Blood Burn, and he can Teleport. Now it's questionable whether he wants to Teleport, but it's important that he has the option, because it does do some damage, and apparently many people think Marquis has the edge at close range. But the important thing is Blood Burn. Blood Burn costs 0, and it reduces Cain's ability to do damage at far range a lot faster than Cain can wear down Marquis's resistance (so Marquis can also mix in intercepts with his Blood Burns, without risking taking any actual damage). Which is why I went Blood Burn followed by intercept - I cast Blood Burn once and they realize that they're not going to be able to do a thing to me. And if they stay in, then what? After 3 Blood Burns, they can't do any damage at all at far range. They have no chance but to either switch or get close. Though I think if someone were to insist on staying in long enough (but probably before it got to triple Blood Burn), I'd probably instead just use Teleport (which would do the full 10 damage at that point - not much, but better than the nothing that would have been happening till then) and see how he likes it at close range. Which, again, I'm surprised he wouldn't!
So while I can understand why Cain would be reluctant to fight Marquis at close range, fighting at far range doesn't seem to make any sense at all. Can anyone explain this?
-Harry
First game: I start Marquis, he starts Cain. He gets far. I intercept, he Voidstreams. I Blood Burn, he Voidstreams again. He switches out, I intercept. He forfeits.
Second game: I start Marquis, he starts Cain. He gets far. I intercept, he rests. I intercept again, he Voidstreams. I Blood Burn, he Voidstreams again. He switches out, I intercept. He switches out again, I intercept again. Cain dies. He forfeits.
Now first thing here that doesn't make sense is, OK, being down a full character while having dealt no damage is a very bad start, but forfeiting? Really? He hadn't even seen any of my other cards; for all he knew I was characters he had a big advantage against. And forfeiting after getting intercepted just *once*? 35 damage is nowhere near insurmountable.
Second thing is, why do people try this? This far from the first time I've run across this strategy - Cain getting far against Marquis, or the player otherwise displaying he thinks Cain has an advantage over Marquis at far range (being at far range and intercepting, e.g.). (Indeed, I wrote about such a case in my first entry on Kongai - it was how I discovered the Stalemate Sucka rule.) Hell, this isn't even the first time I've had nearly this same exact exchange, though I don't think it's always ended with my opponent conceding.
Let's analyze this. At close range, Cain can Tackle. If Marquis goes Life Drain, it's got a 50% chance of getting interrupted. Sure, a 50% chance of your attack being largely neutralized isn't so good, but it's better than a lot of others can do against Marquis at close range, right? You interrupt me even once and I'm in trouble, and you've got a 50% chance to do so... much better than Higashi's 30%. Now, you can't interrupt a Vampiric Touch, but that costs 55. Though, in this case, it will heal most of the damage from Tackle, and Marquis only needs to do it twice in order to kill (but will he?).
In any case, I'd say it's not really clear who has the advantage in close range Marquis vs Cain, but I'd probably give the edge to Cain. But here's the thing - even if you disagree, why would you go far? Switch to a different character entirely perhaps, but not go far. Let's look at the far range case.
At far range, Cain initially cannot damage Marquis. He just can't. He has to cast Voidstream twice before he can do any damage at all - Rush of Bats for a whole 5 damage. Not very threatening. So yes - if Marquis simply stood there and rested the whole time, Cain would eventually kill the Marquis. But the Marquis is not going to stand there and rest the whole time. What can the Marquis do? He can Blood Burn, and he can Teleport. Now it's questionable whether he wants to Teleport, but it's important that he has the option, because it does do some damage, and apparently many people think Marquis has the edge at close range. But the important thing is Blood Burn. Blood Burn costs 0, and it reduces Cain's ability to do damage at far range a lot faster than Cain can wear down Marquis's resistance (so Marquis can also mix in intercepts with his Blood Burns, without risking taking any actual damage). Which is why I went Blood Burn followed by intercept - I cast Blood Burn once and they realize that they're not going to be able to do a thing to me. And if they stay in, then what? After 3 Blood Burns, they can't do any damage at all at far range. They have no chance but to either switch or get close. Though I think if someone were to insist on staying in long enough (but probably before it got to triple Blood Burn), I'd probably instead just use Teleport (which would do the full 10 damage at that point - not much, but better than the nothing that would have been happening till then) and see how he likes it at close range. Which, again, I'm surprised he wouldn't!
So while I can understand why Cain would be reluctant to fight Marquis at close range, fighting at far range doesn't seem to make any sense at all. Can anyone explain this?
-Harry
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Date: 2009-01-14 06:44 am (UTC)